In an Islamic culture, the existence of a truly democratic state (including, but not limited to, liberty of conscience, freedom of association, religious liberty, etc.) is impossible. To be fair, it was also impossible in the time of Joshua. And, it will be impossible again when the True Joshua returns to take, not the land of Palestine, but the entire cosmos, thus ushering in the theocratic Kingdom of God. Then, the church will again bear the sword, and the kingdom of priests will go about their duty of cleansing the cosmic temple of the enemies of God. Then, there will be no notions of “religious liberty.” But not yet.
The only culture in which a democracy can truly function is one which is founded on Judeo-Christian morals, and which (therefore) sees itself in an already-not yet stage of redemptive history. So, while we’re here, what should be our response, as Christians, to an encroaching Islamic theocratic state? They believe that we’re infecting their land, and that we ought to be driven out of it, for not bowing the knee to Allah, and his Prophet Mohammed. How should we respond 1) as citizens of heaven, and 2) as citizens of the United States of America?
As 1) citizens of heaven, we are not yet to take up the sword. We are to love our neighbors, and our enemies. We are to bless them that spitefully use us and persecute us, and pray for them who say all manner of evil against us falsely for Christ’s name’s sake. We are to preach and plead and, if necessary, lay down our lives for our friends. We are to “overcome by the blood of the lamb, and the word of our testimony [note: not yet by the sword], not loving our lives–even unto death.”
But the answer to 2) isn’t quite so easy. In the common-grace age, justice is to be upheld by the State. And, part of that justice is the lex talionis of Genesis 9:6 [show] [6]"Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.
. The Muslim believes, as the ambassador and ground-taker of the Islamic theocratic State, that to convert out of, or reject, Islam is a crime–and their “justice” requires death. (For they think they’re doing the work of God – .) But for the Christian, justice (in this age) calls all religiously-motivated execution an unjust death, one which necessarily provokes retributive capital punishment. His “justice” provokes our justice; his religious ethic provokes our civil ethic; his response to a religious crime is met with our response to a civil crime.
But even our civil law is at least inspired by a Judeo-Christian ethic. True, it may only be a waning residual momentum from a worldview recently fallen out of fashion – similar to the motion a circular saw after it’s been unplugged – but today that standard of law still functions. The point is this: at bottom, these two definitions of justice are religiously motivated, fundamentally irreconcilable, and therefore destined for an epic clash. So what should we do?
It is in everyone’s best interest here that the powers of the State (the one whose definition of justice is inspired by a Judeo-Christian ethic) be supported and defended (perhaps even pro-actively?). (Here enters the discussion of “just war.”) But bottom line, there can only be democracy, and religious liberty, when the Judeo-Christian definition of justice inspires the State.
So, what measures are we willing to take to see that that power is protected? Is true “liberty and Justice for All” worth war? Because against an expanding Islamic theocratic State, we have the same options RWR gave us when we dealt with Communism: “War or Slavery.”
…your thoughts are welcome.
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We’ve discussed this already so I’ll keep quiet. But since you quoted Regan, here are some wonderful additions.
“Here’s my strategy on the Cold War: We win, they lose.”
“The most terrifying words in the English language are: I’m from the government and I’m here to help.”
“The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they’re ignorant: It’s just that they know so much that isn’t so.”
“Of the four wars in my lifetime none came about because the U.S. was too strong.”
“I have wondered at times about what the Ten Commandment’s would have looked like if Moses had run them through the U.S. Congress.”
“The taxpayer: That’s someone who works for the federal government but doesn’t have to take the civil service examination.”
“Government is like a baby: An alimentary canal with a big appetite at one end and no sense of responsibility at the other.”
“If we ever forget that we’re one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under.”
“The nearest thing to eternal life we will ever see on this earth is a government program.”
“I’ve laid down the law, though, to everyone from now on about anything that happens: no matter what time it is, wake me, even if it’s in the middle of a Cabinet meeting.”
“It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first.”
“Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
“Politics is not a bad profession. If you succeed there are many rewards, if you disgrace yourself you can always write a book.”
“No arsenal, or no weapon in the arsenals of the world, is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men and women.”
Classic.
Lex talionis? I guess the examples of the Palestinians and Israelis blasting each other, the shi-ites and sunnis, the American Indians and settlers after the Easter Massacre, the Democrats and Republicans, and for that matter, the Hatfields and McCoys – leave me suspect. An eye for an eye leaves too much passion and potential vengence on the table in my opinion.
“Democracies” have a tendency to spiral into socialism and a peoples yearning for a strong executive. Our Constitution is the best example of how to create a gov’t in the Democratic ideal. Through federalism and a separation of passion from legislation, we have an ‘idea’ of the only medicine for typical results after the torrent of Democratic ideals wanes in peoples minds. Look to the French Revolution and the guillotine justice that resulted there
Regarding the power of lex talionis, it’s the State that is to bear the sword, not the Hatfields and the McCoys. Enter the need for police, courts, etc. Justice is, by definition, “exact retribution” — whether for good or evil — according to the agreed upon terms of the law, contract, etc.. But that justice is for the courts to determine and administer, not for embittered vigilantes. [added: They would be called outlaws, subject to civil and criminal penalty for taking the law (determination and administration of the lex talionis) into their own hands - a usurpation of the State's authority and thus a crime against the State.]
Regarding the French Revolution; I just read somewhere that religious motives aren’t the only ones that lead to the death penalty; that even within secularism sectarianism can get just as harsh. Which is yet another reason why true liberty cannot be divorced from true justice–and neither liberty nor justice can be divorced from a Judeo-Christian common-grace understanding/definition of both liberty and justice. Interesting stuff.
So, should I be using the term “constitutional republic” instead of “democracy”?
Right, I know, you explained the State bearing the sword. That being the case, it is just my opinion, that it still can promote too much personal and public emotion. The State administers justice yes, not the individuals – agreed. It is just the eye for an eye thing that I question.
I think ‘democracy’ is fine, unless you want to be academically precise about everything! Which I don’t think is necessary unless you are writing a textbook or the like.
Impeach Logan.
I see where you’re coming from…but how do you get out of Genesis 9:6?
And yes – I emphatically agree with you. Logan should be impeached.
Romans 13 [show] Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. [2]Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. [3]For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, [4]for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. [5]Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. [6]For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. [7]Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
– If those ordinances don’t call for the death of one man for the murder of another (or the death of a heffer if you can’t find the murderer – that’s if you counsel Deut.).
[8]Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. [9]For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." [10]Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
[11]Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. [12]The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. [13]Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. [14]But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. (ESV)
Old in light of the new, right? Or no?
Interesting questions you raise O’hagan. The good citizens responsibility is to think about this stuff, at least occasionaly, as we go about our busy lives.
Hm…nice parry (Rom. 13 [show] Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. [2]Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. [3]For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, [4]for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. [5]Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. [6]For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. [7]Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
), and nice riposte (“Old in light of the new, right? Or no?” – they would’ve cheered).
[8]Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. [9]For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet," and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." [10]Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
[11]Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. [12]The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. [13]Let us walk properly as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in quarreling and jealousy. [14]But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to gratify its desires. (ESV)
Well, given that we have a hand in the making of those ordinances, and given Romans 13:4 [show] [4]for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. (ESV)
and Genesis 9:6 [show] [6]"Whoever sheds the blood of man,
, bottom-line: should we be (and vote) for or against capital punishment?
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.
(Oh, and I’m not for the strict form of lex talionis [where even accidental death is met with retribution], but specifically for cases where murder [whether premeditated or "passionate"] is discovered/determined by the court.)
Is murder the only crime you’re talking about in light of Gen 9 [show] And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. [2]The fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth and upon every bird of the heavens, upon everything that creeps on the ground and all the fish of the sea. Into your hand they are delivered. [3]Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. [4]But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. [5]And for your lifeblood I will require a reckoning: from every beast I will require it and from man. From his fellow man I will require a reckoning for the life of man.
and eye for an eye?
[6]"Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed,
for God made man in his own image.
[7]And you, be fruitful and multiply, teem on the earth and multiply in it."
[8]Then God said to Noah and to his sons with him, [9]"Behold, I establish my covenant with you and your offspring after you, [10]and with every living creature that is with you, the birds, the livestock, and every beast of the earth with you, as many as came out of the ark; it is for every beast of the earth. [11]I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of the flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth." [12]And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant that I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for all future generations: [13]I have set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and the earth. [14]When I bring clouds over the earth and the bow is seen in the clouds, [15]I will remember my covenant that is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh. And the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh. [16]When the bow is in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth." [17]God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant that I have established between me and all flesh that is on the earth."
[18]The sons of Noah who went forth from the ark were Shem, Ham, and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) [19]These three were the sons of Noah, and from these the people of the whole earth were dispersed.
[20]Noah began to be a man of the soil, and he planted a vineyard. [21]He drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent. [22]And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father and told his two brothers outside. [23]Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned backward, and they did not see their father's nakedness. [24]When Noah awoke from his wine and knew what his youngest son had done to him, [25]he said,
"Cursed be Canaan;
a servant of servants shall he be to his brothers."
[26]He also said,
"Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem;
and let Canaan be his servant.
[27]May God enlarge Japheth,
and let him dwell in the tents of Shem,
and let Canaan be his servant."
[28]After the flood Noah lived 350 years. [29]All the days of Noah were 950 years, and he died. (ESV)
No, not really. The general principle of exact retribution – for example, if I damage something that belongs to you while it’s in my care, I should replace it (or give you its replacement value). Basically, if I take something from your side of the scales, it should be replaced by something from my side of the scales, so there’s balance. That’s justice. Does that make sense?
Ok, I think I understand your viewpoint now. From your previous comment it seemed you were applying this scriptural guidance to criminal cases and civil cases, which you are, I think. I’m all for old school common law correcting the type of situation of private property and small claims, but not for state vs. citizen criminal cases such as murder, or even negligent homocide / manslaughter. It would be a lot easier to defend such a stance if our jails did a better job of taking care of the justice such instances demand. I’m just for Life in all cases.
Interesting…so, the state should “bear the
sword[jail cell]“. (And a portion of our wages should pay for their stay, I would assume.) I understand. But, I must ask: on what standard of authority do you base this principle of “Life in all cases”?On my own personal level, I would use the sermon on the mount, which (I think) doesn’t forbid the death penalty, but teaches us temperance and forgiveness in all crime against our person or property – allowing the state to administer the sword adhearing to their civil ordinances. Then, we can look to all man’s rights, but specifically the self evident right to life, given to us by God, and part of our universal Declaration to the world. By not diminishing life of the accused and convicted, it allows for a consistent argument against other life diminishing issues that haunt our society.
Also, I have issues with the ability of the government to put her citizens to death. We are so lucky to have had the experience this nation affords. Most are so blind and simply don’t bother to learn the history of other nations old and new where justice was or is administered for revenge or personal amusement. Look at the abuse of such power in Iran, China, Soviet satellites and Sudan for a scary reminder.
Nice stab at the cost of our prison system but you are preaching to the choir. First of all, part of your responsibility as a citizen is to pay taxes for such public works. Secondly, prison reform is a much needed result of our courts being turned upside down in the 60s (ACLU et all) and 70s – preventing ‘hard’ time calling it cruel and unusual. Let’s bring back the days of Shawshank, or Alcatraz!
Sure, I agree about the personal ethic of Matt. 5 [show] Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him.
(Romans 12:17-19 [show] [17]Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. [18]If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. [19]Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." (ESV)
, etc.), but I don’t see how we could justify upholding scripture as the criterion for personal, but not civil, ethics. We either look to divine revelation, or human reason, for the interpretation of reality – including the definition of ‘justice.’ Preventing exact retribution for murder leaves the scales of justice imbalanced, at best, and at worst, is rebellion against the common-grace law of the High King of heaven and earth. (And treason is a capital crime in his kingdom, too.)
[2]And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:
[3]"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
[4]"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
[5]"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
[6]"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
[7]"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
[8]"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
[9]"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
[10]"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
[11]"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. [12]Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
[13]"You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.
[14]"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. [15]Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. [16]In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
[17]"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. [18]For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. [19]Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [20]For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
[21]"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' [22]But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire. [23]So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, [24]leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. [25]Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. [26]Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
[27]"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' [28]But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. [29]If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell. [30]And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
[31]"It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' [32]But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except on the ground of sexual immorality, makes her commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
[33]"Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.' [34]But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, [35]or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. [36]And do not take an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. [37]Let what you say be simply 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil.
[38]"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' [39]But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. [40]And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. [41]And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. [42]Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.
[43]"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' [44]But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, [45]so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. [46]For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? [47]And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? [48]You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. (ESV)
That self-evident “right to life” endowed by the Creator speaks of the right of individuals to not be put to death at the whim of other individuals. But “governments are instituted among men to secure these rights,” meaning that any vigilante-style alienation of that right-to-life will be met with swift justice from the state. Sure, there have been abuses of such power in history. Sure, it may make our arguments against abortion in any case appear less consistent to the secular (or theistic) humanists. But that hardly gives us the right to displace divine wisdom with human…don’t you think?
Yeah, that’s why I said ‘on a personal level’.
Treason, by the way, is no longer a capital crime in our country.
Guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this issue.
Oh, sorry – I meant ‘And [as in most kingdoms,] treason is a captial crime in his kingdom, too.’
Fair enough – thanks for the dialogue! I certainly appreciate the caliber of thought you bring to the discussion, Mr. FFM. BTW, when are you going to put up a blog of your own? I’d visit daily.